Hacking Sales: The Playbook For Building a High Velocity Sales Machine, with Max Altschuler [Episode 92]

In this episode, Max Altschuler, founder and CEO of Sales Hacker, Inc., and the author of Hacking Sales: The Playbook for Building A High Velocity Sales Machine discusses what it takes to build your own high velocity sales machine. Among the many topics we discuss in this information-packed episode are:

• What high velocity means in selling.
• The steps you need to take to focus on generating more revenue with fewer resources
• How to quickly build a pipeline that is fat with qualified prospects
• Why you need to specialize sales roles and verticalize your sales focus
• Why mature sales teams need to act like start-up sales teams and embrace the sales hacker practices
• Why hacking sales works in complex sales as well as transactional sales.

Want to create a high velocity sales machine for your company? Don’t miss out on this episode!

Episode Transcript

Andy Paul: Max, welcome to the show.

Max Altschuler: Thanks for having me, Andy.

Andy Paul: So tell us a little bit about you. How’d you get your start in sales?

Max Altschuler: Yeah, so always been, somewhat enterprising ever since an early age.

My dad said I got in trouble in kindergarten for trying to sell my Halloween candy on the school bus and been selling ever since. Usually something that I’ve done for myself, ever since again, grade school coming up out of college, I started my first business out of college. We built a social media company and it was in 2011. The Yelp and Foursquare craze happening in businesses. We’re trying to understand social media. And so we were helping them, by getting small businesses, real estate agents, bars and restaurants involved and, built a bit nice business from the ground up. Nice little lifestyle business, but really wanted to do something bigger. And we were teaching ourselves how to program came across a company called Udemy, an online education company. And, And reach out to them from Nicaragua. We were running this business from Central America. Our goal was to make American money while living abroad. And that was like number one to us. But at some point you get a little too ambitious and you’re like, okay, what’s bigger here. And, ended up getting the first business development job at a company called Udemy. Help them, go through their A round, their B round, and build that the supply side of that marketplace, and that’s where we started really understanding what sales hacking was. And it’s, it’s basically like a really technical way of building their top of the funnel, and then working people through it. There are a lot of different ways to hack your sales, whether it’s technological, capital or human capital or using virtual assistants in the Philippines, there’s a lot of different things you can do. Psychological, when you’re selling at an early stage, we were talking to a prospect and you’re like, Oh, let me get this over to my creative team. See what we can do. And your creative team is you basically using Photoshop or something like that, or, somebody in the background that you’re outsourcing through in Bangladesh, you have to sound bigger than you are, really early on. So what ways can you hack it to, get your business off the ground, generate more revenue, using less resources and that’s where we started. And it’s evolved greatly from there into just the next generation of sales. No matter what and what level you are, what you’re doing at that company, whatever your role was in sales. There’s a lot of technology out right now that can help you do your job more effectively and efficiently and make people more productive.

So that’s kinda how we got here and that’s kinda how I got my start. And I went from Udemy to AttorneyFee. i was VP of Biz Development at Attorney Fee. We sold to LegalZoom and then got this going.

Okay. This going, meaning, Sales Hacker

Sales Hacker. Hacking Sales, tthe book. Yeah, exactly.

Andy Paul: So what does high velocity mean then in that equation?

Max Altschuler: Yeah. So again, generating more revenue with less resources. So how are you building, one a really efficient pipeline and two, how are you closing those deals faster than ever before? You want to really calculate, are you getting the most revenue per lead? And are you closing deals in the fastest possible cycle possible? do you have a really fat, healthy pipeline? There are a lot of things that you would just want to take a pulse on. And the high velocity comes into play in, getting those deals closed, building that pipeline as fat as possible and getting people through it as fast as possible in an efficient manner. And making sure again, that they’re, really targeted prospects to begin with, if you focus on and on your ideal customer profile early on in the process, you’re going to get more higher qualified leads in your pipeline. Your pipeline is going to be, fat, full of only qualified prospects, and they’re going to close a lot quicker. So again, if you focus on that high velocity part, you’re really focusing on and a lot of things, even further, in the beginning of the process and make it easier for it to go quicker. As it goes down the line.

Andy Paul: So it seems again, one of the real impressions that I get and I’m out there talking to companies, both in the tech space, as well as the non-tech space, specifically more in the non-tech space is a business owner, CEO sort of listening to the show. Maybe they have 10 sales reps still handling life cycle selling. They haven’t done any specialization. They got geographic territories. Setting their own appointments, doing all that and they’re rightly worried the world’s going to pass them by. So what’s the first recommendation you’d give them him or her to help transition to the, to high velocity sales?

Max Altschuler: One specialized and verticalized. So again, you should have is to two separate things. One, you should have reps that are doing the top of the funnel and building out that pipeline and then reps that are in charge of making sure that pipeline closes and closes quickly. And then on the third end revenue per lead. So I’m making sure you get the most out of them. So in the beginning, You’re going out and you’re filling the pipeline as fat as possible with the most qualified leads that you can. Then you have reps in the middle, your AEs are your SDRs, then your AEs who are making sure those deals close and close quickly. And not falling through the cracks. And then you have your customer success at the end, who’s doing upsell, crosssell, resell opportunities to make sure you’re getting the most revenue per lead that comes in per company.

The second side of that is verticalized. So you are going out and finding, okay, who is your ideal customer profile, go and look at your past deals that you’ve closed and see, not only, what types of companies you’re talking to that typically close, but what they’re, what the role is, what that title is that usually signs those deals and who else is involved, go out and find who your competitors are talking to. And, who are customers of your competitors using companies like HG Insights, Datanyze, Data Fox, there’s a lot of different things you can find out about, especially in software, what companies are using what pieces of software.

So if you want to, if you were a MailChimp competitor or like a marketing automation competitor, you’d want to know who’s using Marketto. You can actually find that on the internet and then, a real basic, easy way to do that is also go to like customer testimonial pages and see what types of companies are on those pages and then go after those types of companies.

So if you’re verticalizing, if your reps, at the top of the funnel are looking in certain areas that, are high yield. They’re going to have a much, it’s going to be a much more efficient way to prospect and build that fight, that fat pipeline, because you know exactly who you’re going after.

So you’re almost pre-qualifying by figuring out your ideal customer profile. And you can do that, BANT and on them, budget, authority need timing. You could almost reverse engineer these days because you have so much information. At your fingertips as a sales person and the buyer has all this information too, but data is so cheap and so accessible more than ever before for salespeople.

So you can actually go out and find companies that have budget, who the authority is, if there’s a need. And if the timing is right. All on the internet publicly. And a lot of cases, if you do your research and you go into, LinkedIn and go until, Twitter and you go into, company databases like PitchBook or Mattermark, or, CapitalIQ or Owler, or there’s a lot of different databases out there where you can go find this information. So if you can basically, pre-qualify these people by almost reversing, instead of doing dance on the phone, you’re doing band on the internet, but doing your research, you’re going to be able to build a fatter pipeline quicker. That’s going to convert for you faster and that’s high velocity right there.

Andy Paul: Okay. but again, if you’re a, Let’s say it a little bit of older line business, maybe like a uniform supply company here. No tech customers. So how do they have to begin to understand, first of all, okay. You’ve got one Salesforce. You need to start thinking about specialization. As you talked about your need to have some sales reps are focused purely on prospecting, which we typically call sales development reps who will then focus on a list of names that are you your ideal customer profile. So one of the tools that you talked about there, cause some were a little more specific for tech business that you might recommend for somebody in that state of saying, okay, how do I identify my niche and how do I get some names to my SDRs to start making some calls?

Max Altschuler: Yeah. So you got to go look at your past deals. A company that’s been around for a while has the advantage of having deals closed in the past. So if they can look at the deals that they’ve already closed and they’re in like a niche business, but you already won some business, then you can say, okay, where do we go find the people that are exactly like these companies. And so it’s actually at that point pretty easy to say, all right, we closed the deal with Caterpillar that makes the, tractors and trailers and whatnot. What other companies are similar to Caterpillar? And then it’s really just going out there and doing competitive analysis and research.

And there’s, a lot of public company databases that you can search by industry. There’s, obviously this is a great job for a virtual assistant. You can hire people in the Philippines off oDesk for $3 and 50 cents an hour, and they can go out and build these lists for you. They just need good directions, but still you have, a really good advantage because you’ve already closed deals before. And the types of people that are buying from you, if you are starting from scratch, it’s a little tougher. If you’re. again, selling uniforms, you’re going to have to be intelligent about the first couple of customers that you get and you’re gonna, I have to go out and do some, maybe field research. You’re going to have to put together that initial list based off of, how you validated that business in the first place and then go from there and see what those conversations yield.

Andy Paul: Okay. So another idea that you start with is this idea of building the sales stack. So explain what a sales stack is to the listeners.

Max Altschuler: Yeah. Sales stack is your basically your stack of technology that powers your sales process. And so for most people, it starts with a CRM. Then a lot of people that are on LinkedIn or pay for LinkedIn Premium or Sales Navigator, there’s then there’s the kind of the next level  sales technologies that kind of stem from that. So if you’re heavily reliant on, using email in your sales process, you might want an email tracking software like ToutApp or Yesware or Outreach, SalesLoft, you might want something.

Andy Paul: And just to explain to listeners who maybe aren’t familiar with that is, so that then tells you when your email that you send is open. So if you’re a sales rep, you get this great sales intelligence that the person you sent it to is actually opened it. Maybe the number of times they opened it. And in some cases, even if they’ve clicked on the attachments.

Max Altschuler: Yep. And you can see how long people have been in the attachments for it that’s, obviously really important to know if you send a proposal over to someone, all right. They sent a really long time on the pricing page, or they spend a really long time on the email tracking part of our company. But they don’t really care about the template page or any of these other things. Like maybe we should go in on this value proposition for them. So there’s a lot that you can derive from how long people spend on certain areas of the presentation that you’ve sent, allows you to put, templates into emails. So if you created a template before on a classic followup for somebody who has gone dark, you can basically straight from your inbox, pull in that template, tailor it a little bit and make it a little bit personal for the person you’re sending it to, but instead of writing a whole new email on something that you send, multiple times a day, you can make a nice and quick by pulling in that template.

Again, you get the tracking capabilities. If you were heavily reliant on email, this is extremely valuable for you. Obviously there are other parts of the stack that are focused on the lead gen side of things. maybe in your stack, you have a company that helps you pull, contact information from all the different ideal customers that you’re looking into.

So if you need phone number and email, you might want a product like ZoomInfo or something like that. That’s going to allow you to pull that contact information without having anything else. You can pull information straight from LinkedIn. So if you want somebody’s email address and you want to hit them with an InMail and an email, you can use, SalesLoft or Datanyze one of these  companies.  RingLead allows you to pull it straight from LinkedIn or other social sources. So that’s an integral part of your stack. Again, I mentioned Datanyze, earlier when we were talking about finding our competitors. So maybe you want to know everyone who’s using Marketo, if you’re a marketing automation company, that would be an integral part of your stack.

There’s plenty of stuff around hiring and managing, there’s make your sales team like a fantasy football team type apps. There’s so many different buckets now and so many different types of technologies that are being built for salespeople. It’s a really exciting time to be in sales.

Andy Paul: Yeah, I think the lesson for again, for entrepreneurs, CEOs, again, people necessarily outside the tech space cause within the tech space tends to be, I think greater adoption of these types of tools, is that you have to reset your sales culture is that we’re gonna embrace technology as a tool because I remember I gave a workshop a year ago to a firm that about a hundred sales reps and they had no technology at all, other than email. In fact that they hadn’t even heard of email tracking. And I think the VP of it was upset with me by the time we got done. Cause we had a list of tools that they needed to embrace, but it really start at the top. The culture has to be embraced from the top that we’re going to use technology to help us, as you said, accelerate our entire sales process.

Max Altschuler: There’s a stat that 40% of the Fortune 500 in the year, 2000 is no longer on the fortune 500 in the year 2015. So 15 years later, what 220 companies dropped out of the Fortune 500 and it’s cause they didn’t adapt. They didn’t evolve. And there’s a lot of companies coming up now that are building, solutions for clunky legacy systems in this kind of lightweight cloud, SaaS software and their sales teams are all highly technological. They are embracing the technology that’s coming out for them. And, like I said, before, data cheaper and more accessible than it’s ever been in the past. And there are a lot of companies out there working to make it actionable for the sales person. And if you don’t embrace that, you were just really kicking a blatant advantage in the face and, it doesn’t make sense to me, but, we’ll see if companies come and survive without doing it. I don’t think they will.

Andy Paul: Okay, good. We’re going to take a short break before we do. Let me pose a question to you that I post to all of my guests. And I’ll take your answer when we come back from the break. So here’s the scenario you’ve been hired as a new sales leader at a firm who sales have stalled out and senior management is really anxious for things to change. So what two things would you do in your first week in the job that would have the biggest impact? So think about that and I’ll be back after the break with my guest Max Altschuler.

What two things would you do your first week on the job that would have the biggest impact?

Max Altschuler: Yeah, I think, I think you’ve got to simplify right off the bat. So you got to come in and you actually have to implement your process, but before you implement your process, you have to simplify everything. maybe cut a little bit of the fat, reorg, the, organization that you currently have, that you would, you adopted, check in on. Maybe do some backchanneling on, all the reps that are currently there and see if they are, a right fit for the way that you’re trying to rebuild that organization. And I think it starts with the people first and making sure that team is in order. And simplification really comes in on the employee side and what everybody’s roles are and making sure everybody knows where they fit on the team and making sure you have a great team in place. and then on the technology side and the, the process side, getting in a room with, sales ops and some of my sales leaders and saying, all right, what do we need to do to make this thing a weld machine and really make this thing.

Highly efficient and our reps highly effective and at that point, it’s, it’s really taking a survey on, how the team operates, between sales development and count execs customer success, and then what type of sell it. So there’s obviously a lot of things that matter, again with sales, there’s no silver bullet.

So depending on the deal sizes, depending on the deal cycle length, depending on the, there’s so many different things, there’s so many different variables, that would change how you built that process, but you would basically, one want to simplify and then to put a process in place, that you think will be successful and pretty tight.

And again, you’re going to have to pivot quite a bit, that process. You’re going to have to test and tweak and modify a lot of things. But I think you put something down there, you build a test and then measure the results and then use the best ones. And it’ll be a lot of A/B testing, certain areas of that pipeline. But I think at some point you can write the ship. If you believe in the product and your team believes in the product, then there’s no reason why you can’t figure it out.

Andy Paul: Okay, good. So one of the things that you hear oftentimes about, this new sales model, the specialized sales model and so on is that it maybe doesn’t work as well in more complex sales. A lot of companies have more complex systems or products they sell, so what’s your thought about that?

Max Altschuler: I’d say it would work more in more complex sales. There are a lot of those. There are a lot of things in a complex sale that you can make more efficient. It’s actually in the less complex sale, I think people are hesitant to buy into too much technology or anything like that because they will already close so quickly. So for a company like Yelp that sells ad space to SMB, they’re not going to layer on a ton of technology because their guys are just sitting in chairs and dialing a million times a day, because they’re getting small deals from quick cycles from mom and pop shops, but in a more complex, the bigger than deal, you actually need more technology. You need more visibility into your sales process. You need a company that’s going to be able to tell you, alright, I sent this guy a proposal. Has he opened it yet? How long have they looked at it? What are they looking at in the proposal? I want to know that in a complex deal, when I’m selling, $5 ad space to a mom and pop shop on, Yelp. I don’t really need that visibility. When I’m selling massive deals that are 12 months plus cycles, any cutting down that cycle by anything.\ could be, hundreds of thousands of dollars in revenue as far as opportunity costs, and as far as the deal goes, speed wins time kills deals. So you want to be able to be as efficient as possible on those complex deals in the more complex they are. I think the more you want to focus on that efficiency and making sure that things are streamlined and nothing falls through the cracks because you lose a deal in that model compared to the up model and it’s a huge hit.

Andy Paul: Yeah, no, I agree. that’s the reason I wrote my book Zero-Time Selling was all about efficiency and sales process. But I think it’s something for, again, for companies that aren’t as accustomed to the innovation and the sales model that we see that a lot more old schools that have to think about the fact that you gotta, specialization and technology are really essential to evaluate in terms of how they can benefit your business and shorten your sales cycle.

Max Altschuler: Yeah, I think people come around, it’s, it always takes time. with these things it’s still very new, but over the past two, three years, sales has evolved. I think more than ever before, we’re in this era where I think this-

Andy Paul: I think it’s starting to I don’t want to think of it.

I think that’s a lot of things that I think we and this is part of the reason I really addressing the show to people who are outside the tech spaces. I think we get fooled by. What’s happened in the tech space and thanks those and think that it’s being replicated outside and my experiences as speaker and doing workshops and having people get feedback on the things I write is that yeah, the penetration is still pretty small. So we still have a lot of work to do to get, the broader economy to embrace this type of model.

Max Altschuler: Humans sold in the beginning, dawn of time was face to face. And then the phone was it vented. And imagine if you did it and embraced the phone when the phone was event and then email is invented. Imagine if you didn’t use that in sales. So now I think we’re in another era right here, which is like the enhancement era. It enhances all three of those things enhances everything you do in sales. And I think this is another one of those milestones where it’s you just got a huge advantage. If you don’t use it, the people that are going to basically eat your lunch. If you’re still selling door to door, and not taking advantage of the phone or email, or even all this stuff to enhance your sales process, you’re probably not going to be doing as well as the people who are, so this is another level of that.

Andy Paul: So what are the new skill sets then that sales leaders need to be able to embrace? Cause they’re all a change is going to come from the top. For the most part. there’s all the models where, you know, the sales reps embrace change and it begins to filter up through the organization, but cultural changes really need to start at the top. So what are the new skillsets I said that sales leaders need to have today?

Max Altschuler: Yeah, I think, just a bigger appreciation of technology and you can hire, somebody in the op ops department to come in and help build out your tech stack and get your reps Using the technology. I think that as long as the belief is there from the top, that could be delegated.

I think the main thing that these leaders need to focus on more is metrics and understanding the numbers and how to tweak those things and pull those levers to get those to go up. And so if they have, or someone to delegate technology to, can they understand well enough all of these new data points and all these new data sources that they can now get from the technology and from their sales teams, can they read through that? Find out what the actionable data is, and then use that to make their teams more efficient, more effective and overall higher performing. So that’s the kicker right there is you have all this data, you have technology, that’s making it actionable. Now you need to understand how to turn that actionable data into action on your sales team.

And that’s where the leadership comes in. So if you get your sales ops guy and you get your technology stack built out and you start understanding all this, the deeper analytics on why deals aren’t closing, or how deals are closing quicker with one rep compared to another rep and what that rep is doing.

If you get that information and you know how to turn that into action on your sales team, the sky’s the limit, if you can go, if you can go look at two reps and one is doing, 200% of quota and the other, one’s doing eight 80 and you don’t know what they’re doing differently and the data allows you to find that out and figure that out. Then you can go and say, okay, number two, partner up with rep number one and rep number one, I want you to teach this guy X, Y, and Z. Or I want him to do this exactly like you do this and then you can make this 80% guy, maybe he won’t turn into 200, but maybe he goes to 180 and he’s still doubles. And as a leader, you need to be able to take all this new actionable data and be able to turn it into action throughout your team.

Andy Paul: Yeah. I think one of the things that two people need to keep in mind, they’re listening to the show is that even though the talk has mostly been about the technologies that help drive sales forward more quickly, is that the driver and all of this is the customer. And customers want to make decisions more quickly given the information that’s available to them available online, that they can research is, and the research bearing this out that’s like in the it space, a study that came out last year, saying customers want to make decisions up to 40% faster, but the thing that’s holding them back are salespeople. So at the end of the day, for listeners who are in this is, you got to remember is that your customers are investing time in you. So use this technology that’s in your stack to help you make better use of the time the customer gives you.

Max Altschuler: Yeah, you’re a sales rep and you’re like a therapist you’re asking questions and you’re trying to help the customer  find a breakthrough and they want it. They want it really bad, but you got to lead them to it.

And so you got to ask the right questions and you got to know what’s going on in their head, even if they’re not going to tell you. And the technology helps you achieve a lot of that.

Andy Paul: It does, right? You have to have a basic sense of mind that, when the customer gives you time, you have to deliver something of value to them. If there’s no value delivered, they’re going to stop giving you the time. So take advantage of these technologies in your stack as Max has talked about help you be for that position, read deliberately sell value to the prospect, to help them make decisions more quickly.

So we’ve got one last segment of the show. I’ve got some rapid fire questions for you. You can give me one word answers or you can elaborate as you wish. Are you ready? So what’s your most powerful sales asset, your most powerful personal sales asset?

Max Altschuler: My most powerful personal sales asset in terms of my brain.

Andy Paul: Perfect.

Max Altschuler: Yeah, that’s it. I honestly it’s been experience, so when I say my brain it’s, I think there’s no substitution for good experience. And I can take what I learned for many years of doing this and apply it to any situation. And, you need t o , you kinda just need to give it time as a sales rep and gain that valuable experience and just make sure you’re working with the best of them brightest so that everything you’re learning is the best information you could possibly get.

Andy Paul: And don’t stop learning.

Max Altschuler: Never stop.

Andy Paul: Just think how smart you’ll be when twice as much experience.

Max Altschuler: Exactly.

Andy Paul: Exactly. Okay. So name one tool you use for managing your company sales that you can live without?

Max Altschuler: Yeah. Besides for the, the laptop and the phone I’d say and email, a tool outside of that lately we’ve been using Slack a lot and that’s been great for getting things done very quickly. They’re getting answers on things very quickly. That’s probably my number one right now. But any email automation tool, SalesLoft, Outreach. ToutApp. YesWare one of those, invaluable, we do a lot on email. People are moving to text a lot more. So whether it’s through email other or Slack or other sources, but those have been incredibly helpful.

Andy Paul: Okay, good. Who’s your sales role model?

Max Altschuler: Sales role model? Bill Clinton.

Andy Paul: Oh, really? Why?

Max Altschuler: He is one of the smoothest talkers you’ll find out there. And one of the best salespeople, if you look at honestly, every president or any politician, they’re all salesman. And so if you go to find the best, one of them, Bill is a just watch a lot of his speeches and you’ll see, he’s got it. He’s got it down. Like I knows how to, that guy knows how to sell. He knows how to, he knows how to work an audience. And, that’s an incredible, it’s an incredible talent.

Andy Paul: Yeah. I met him at a fundraiser, back in 2008 and yeah, he’s coming down the line, shaking hands. It’s like when it gets to you, you’re the only person in the world to him. And what an incredible skill to be able to develop to have that.

Max Altschuler: And I never met him, but you can just tell, yeah, he’s phenomenal. that’s, if I was going to tell someone like we’re learning sales from the, from scratch, I’d say go watch a bunch of bill Clinton, speeches and videos and see how he works in room. And now just try and, use his mannerisms and the things that he does. He does it for a reason. I was out to find the best people at what they do and what they studied and, just copy that. He’s one of those guys.

Andy Paul: Okay. So besides your own book, what’s the one book every sales person should read?

Max Altschuler: Predictable Revenue, obviously  from AaronRross is fantastic. Especially if you’re building an SDR model. I don’t know if I have one book. Can I do multiple books?

Andy Paul: Sure. But what about it? What about that’s really for a manager, more than anything else? What about a sales person?

Max Altschuler: For a sales person.

Andy Paul: It’s a great book, predictable revenue, man. Everybody should read it.

Max Altschuler: Greatest Salesman in the World.

Andy Paul: Okay. All right.

Max Altschuler: This one’s one of the first ones that I really want. I started getting really heavy into sales and I carried it with me in my bag, probably for a year or two. And, I don’t know what happened. I should keep it on me, but that’s a fantastic one. There’s a, there’s so many books. On saleshacker.com. Ralph Barsi wrote an article that 23 best sales books for salespeople. And that was like a pretty comprehensive list. But yeah, there’s so many.

Andy Paul: Okay. Now here’s the tough question. So what’s your favorite music to listen to  get pumped up?

Max Altschuler: I’m like a nineties rap guy. So Big Pun, Big Al. I’m an East coaster. So I’m from New York. So those are my jams. DMX. yeah, it’s funny. Sure.

Andy Paul: East Coaster. All right, good. So what’s the first sales activity that you do every day?

Max Altschuler: First sales activity that I do every day, I ask every morning when I wake up, I do like a, I spent probably five minutes just talking to the ceiling, asking for what I want to happen that day. And then what also would I’m thankful for but the asking part is the first sales activity, because it actually helps me organize what I want to happen that day and I think like that organization, the morning allows me to. I’m getting a good mindset, but also, understand what the main goal of the day is and it’s important.

Andy Paul: I got it. So last question. What’s the one question you get asked most frequently by salespeople?

Max Altschuler: What technology do I use for X or, something along those lines? So most people are usually asking me for technology recommendations. I’d say.

Andy Paul: Okay. I was going to ask you what X, what the answer would be if X was a specific thing, but,

Max Altschuler: Yeah, it just depends on what you’re trying to do. And, and honestly, again, there’s no silver bullet. So if you need an email or automation software for sales depends on your company type depends on a lot of different variables. My answer would vary, which is why I was named, like basically the four leaders, when I talk about it, because it’s, you still need to do some evaluation. If you’re a company that’s looking into something like that.

Andy Paul: Okay, great. Good answer. thank you for being my guest today. My guest again Max Altschuler  founder of Sales Hacker, and author of Hacking Sales: The Playbook for Building a High Velocity Sales Machine.