Verne Harnish Podcast: How to Market and Sell for Scaling Up [Episode 381]

Joining me on this episode of Accelerate! is my guest Verne Harnish, Founder of The Gazelles, a leading business coach, bestselling author of Mastering the Rockefeller Habits: What You Must Do to Increase the Value of Your Growing Firm, and most recently, Scaling Up: How a Few Companies Make It…and Why the Rest Don’t, as well as Founder of the Entrepreneurs’ Organization. Among the many topics that Verne and I discuss are the challenges blocking startups from scaling up and his advice for accelerating your growth.

KEY TAKEAWAYS

Verne cites research by Bill Gross at IdeaLab, on five factors that contribute to successful scaling: People, Strategy, Execution, Cash, and Timing, with Timing, the most critical.

Competition grew by magnitudes with the global Internet. The best defense is offense, so go global in a narrow product line.

Jim Collins, in Good to Great, addresses sales automation. (1) Have disciplined people, (2) engaged in disciplined thought, (3) with disciplined action. Once you have your strategy, then (4) add automation. Too early is messy.

Marketing is critical. Lean startups need to say yes to everything. But, “What got you here won’t get you there.” Agile scale-ups need a different approach — a well-functioning marketing department, separate from sales.

76% of companies remain home-based, because they haven’t crossed the barrier to finding the first hire, a great salesperson. 3% of companies scale. How do you know you should? Scalers are voracious learners, who don’t know it all.

Mark Cuban said his biggest failures came when he thought “he was the smartest person in the room.” Have conviction, but be humble enough to go seek help.

Companies may have a book club. Andy has clients do this. To 10X a company, don’t 10X just your own knowledge, but every employee’s knowledge. Don’t outgrow your team.

Verne put in his “Trends” column for 2016, “This is the year we get rid of the word, ‘manager.’” Nobody needs a sales manager, they need a sales coach.

Sales should call in each day and report “what they’ve heard,” for Quick Market Intelligence. Verne says, “There are two kinds of salespeople — winners and whiners.” Winners report what works and what doesn’t, to remove barriers.

Full Episode

Hello and welcome to Accelerate. I’m excited to talk with my guest today. Joining me on the podcast is Verne Harnish. Vern is the founder of the Gazelles, he’s a leading business coach, best-selling author of Mastering the Rockefeller Habits, and most recently Scaling Up, How a few companies make it and why the rest don’t. As well as founder of what’s now the Entrepreneur’s Organization, a global support group for entrepreneurs to embrace the Verne Harnish strategic plan. Verne Harnish, welcome to Accelerate.

Verne Harnish (VH)
Andy, glad to be on the show.

Andy Paul (AP)
And joining us all the way from Barcelona.

VH
Yes.

AP
Nice, nice. So, take a minute to introduce yourself beyond that sketchy intro I got for the audience.

Introducing The Author of Scaling Up, Verne Harnish

VH
Well, I was born and raised in Colorado, where you’re based, and kind of grew up in the space race. My dad and I had a company then when I was in high school, and then launched the Association of Collegiate Entrepreneurs in 1983. And, some of the early participants were Steve Jobs, and Michael Dell and Mark Cuban. And out of that was , and then ‘91, which really kind of formulated, but end up being the block, was the curriculum I developed for that MIT program Birthing of Giants. They’re getting ready to celebrate our 25th anniversary, they still let the old man go back and teach once a year. And then in ‘97, right after the birth of our oldest, I got serious and thought better, I formed for profit company and that’s what we’ve been doing since.

AP
Then the book that you’ve worked, you and your associates within the network works of 40,000 companies

VH
We have, yeah. We spent 34 years at the same thing, and we’ve got a little over 50 now that are utilizing our tools.

AP
So, you to focus on what you call high impact companies. So, define what that is for people.

VH
We do and it’s interesting, we deal from a marketing perspective, how things get relabeled, we call the company Gazelles, which was the original term that David Birch gave to mid-market fast growth companies. Our partner Tom Stewart at Ohio State calls middle market 10 million to a billion. And seems like the new term is “scale ups”. You know, everyone talks about how we need startups and there’s 11,000 startups an hour that are formed around the world, but too few scale up and so, we focus on companies in that range, between about 5 million and a half a billion. And then we’ve got some outliers on either side.

AP
And so, what’s unique about them you talk about scale up. Because one thing, I’ve worked a number of companies serving that range, not quite as on the high answer, 5 to 100 million. What’s unique about them?

VH
Well, they’ve got a unique dynamic, they’ve got a manager. If you’re a small business, and you’re going to stay kind of a small giant, as Bo Burlingham called it, you can get kind of processes and everything stabilized. And then obviously, once you’re a large company, you’ve got all that process in place. But as you’re scaling up, you go through that was kind of odd teenage years where you’re growing, and it can be awkward. You can you can fall backwards. And you’ve got to get a lot of stuff in place that most of the entrepreneurs were not trained to do. How do you how do you make that transition from being an entrepreneur to a CEO? And then how does everybody else in the company handle it? The other thing that’s strange is you cross this kind of crazy point about 70 employees, where you don’t know everybody’s name anymore, and that’s where your culture can start to leak. And if you don’t put or began a process in place to maintain that culture, it gets a little crazy.

Scaling Up, How a few companies make it and why the rest don’t

AP
So, you’ve identified in the books are four key areas that scale ups really need to focus, on people strategy execution cash. How’d you arrive at those four? I started looking for my sort of my sales focus and it wasn’t as much about sort of sales process execution and so on, now, you’re dealing more globally.

VH
Yeah. Well, it lined up with a lot of the research around the world. In fact, Bill Gross at Idealab looked at the same four areas and he found that, first of all, among the hundred companies he founded and the others he supported, all four mattered but what’s interesting, he found a fifth, that matters even more and I think it’s applicable to what we’re talking about here at this podcast and that is timing, market timing. You know, the market can make you look brilliant, even if you’re not, and it can make you look stupid, even if you’re smart. For instance, he funded a company that was YouTube, it was just too early. And YouTube hit it right, hit the wave right. And so, it’s critical to pay attention to the market, which, by the way, marketing as a function is what we identified as the number one barrier, functional barrier to scaling up.

AP
Marketing more so, than sales.

VH
Yeah, more so, than sales. But a lot of folks lump those together in their mind. There are some important differences, but I think for our conversation here, sales and marketing is one of the things that Ed Roberts even found at MIT when he studied fast growth companies that were coming out of the tech sector. Those who had somebody, one person on the team, among techies, who could drive sales and marketing, they grew much further faster, versus just the group of techies themselves?

AP
Well, I want to step back and think about the timing concepts you brought up. I mean timing, in the sense of used as sort of an accident.

Verne Harnish Quotes Joe Mancuso

VH
Yeah, but I think you could look at various trends. I don’t think it would surprise anyone that if you’re in the AI space right now, or FinTech, you’ve really got wind to your back. In fact, I remember years ago Joe Mancuso, who was one of my mentors, founder at the CEO groups and even lent us his line that it’s okay to be independent, but no reason to be alone. Joe, had suggested, and I thought was a great idea. And we could do the equivalent today. He said, if you really want to see the future study, what are the new newsletters, because before there was an industry that was hot there was magazine or trade publication, before there was the trade publication there were the newsletters. I think the equivalent today would be blogs. If somebody could do a trend on blogs, and what was new and hot and growing in the blog space, I think they could predict what industries would be hot.

AP
Interesting. Yes, I am writing that down. Okay. I’m going to go do that.

VH
You know, the other thing is demographics. McKenzie came out with an important report earlier this year. And they said, we used to think it was geographically based, we talked about the BRICS for a while, as parts of the world. They said that doesn’t matter as much today as the age demographics, and between 2015 and 2030, two thirds of the GDP growth in the West is going to come from those over 60. And so, there’s a lot of folks focused on the millennials, but all the wealth is in the group over 60. And if you’re not somehow or another, focusing your products and services on that age group, I think you’re going to I get a lot behind.

AP
That was raised based on the previous comment you made about demographics, with the bricks and so, on the Brazil, Russia, India, China, companies in years to high impact category is, how do they decide when to go international?

VH
Well, I think nowadays sooner than later. Because the challenges since 2007, with the internet and all that, anyone can sell you anything anywhere at any time. And what’s happened is, everyone we deal with is feeling magnitudes more competition. And so, the very best defense is offense, for you to pick a very narrow product line, like Tabasco has the McElhaney family, and then the average hidden champion, these mid-size family on companies that dominate niches are on average in 61 countries. And so, what’s critical, you got to get in their backyard before they get in your backyard. It’s one of the reasons that we did that trip around the world many years ago and ended up in Barcelona. And because it put me six time zones, or in your case, eight time zones closer to the wild, wild east. And I think what a lot of folks, particularly in the US forget, we used to dominate the global economy. Now, we’re only about 17 trillion out of 76 trillion. And so, if you’re only focused in the US, you’re leaving about 80% of the market behind, and you’re allowing your competition, get a foothold someplace else, and then eventually come into your marketplace.

AP
So, in your processes and in the book, do you address that specifically in terms of when you’re talking about scaling your processes and your people? You know, you’re doing business globally to address the rest of this, is that addressed specifically?

VH
You know, I didn’t address it as much as I will in the next book. But the short answer is, follow your existing customers, that’s how we ended up– if I were to look at a map, I would never have picked Malaysia, and particularly Kuala Lumpur is the first country that we really went into big after the United States, but we had an opportunity there, one of our customers allowed us to have about 100 grand worth of revenue, the day we hit the ground. And so, that’s what’s most helpful. Is just go to your existing customer base, find out if any of them are doing business other places, and follow them there. And that’s worked for a lot of our clients.

AP
So, one of the trends that we’re seeing in in sales and marketing these days a tremendous investment in automation technologies. And when you look at some of the research that’s showing that maybe it’s not really having the impact that people are expecting. So, what’s your advice, you work with customers on how they begin to invest in these and how do they make sure that they get the ROI on these investment, in these technologies to drive sales and marketing?

Drawing inspiration from Regis McKenna

VH
Yeah, it’s interesting Jim Collins in his book, Good to Great, addressed this issue. And I thought I thought, right. And that’s where we kind of got our people strategy and execution. He said, “You’ve got to have discipline people”, the people comes first, engage in discipline thought, then through disciplined action, and it’s only once you have figured out what your strategy is, do you want to pour on the technology. Otherwise, all you do is automate a mess. And so, there is really a chicken and egg here. And you’ve got to figure out what is the market you’re going, what’s the one thing you’re going to do? What’s the one product you’re going to sell to that one particular marketplace? And then figure out what technologies are going to help you most to accelerate that. And it always comes back to something that Regis McKenna, Regis was the one–

AP
I knew Regis, I worked in the early days.

VH
Oh, you did. He’s the one who taught Steve Jobs and Andy Grove, and all the folks in Silicon Valley. Well, you may or may not know, but I cold called him in 1983 when I was going to launch Ace, and I pitched him. I said, “Okay, you’re good enough for Steve, who was doing about 2 billion at the time, I thought maybe you could help me”, and he still kids me. I was the only free client he had ever had in the history of the firm. And he signed a young guy, Rich Moran, who today runs a university in Silicon Valley, and was a VC and all that he signed Rich to me, and he said, “Look, I’m going to take you through the same process I took Steve and everyone else in Silicon Valley.” And as his whole thing was about influencers. That power of taking a list, take a piece of paper and make a list, and then track that list down. And so, I got one of the best examples in the last year or so, it was this father son team out of Australia. At first they saw this trend, everybody wants to eat healthier, they want to eat local. And there’s a lot of folks that want to eat what they produce themselves. And they were beekeepers down in Australia. And so, the problem they wanted to solve is it’s not easy to have your own Honey, you got to kind of disrupt the bees and the bees disrupt you. And so, how do they make that easier? So, the father invents this thing called the flow, the son figures out how to 3D print it so, there’s applying technology, where I’m at right businesses today, and then they did the right thing. They identified a handful of bloggers that influenced about 3 million people that were rabid in this space of wanting to produce their own food, a little bit like Mark Zuckerberg going that year where he only wanted to eat which that he killed himself. And they seed it, their Indiegogo campaign to those bloggers who reach those 3 million. And they sold a million dollars’ worth of that $600 product in three hours. You know, by the way, they qualified to be a member of EO in three hours. Then they doubled revenue the next 11 hours, and I don’t know about you, but It normally takes longer than that. And when the campaign finished 30 days later, they’d sold over $12 million to 36,000 people around the globe. They were a global company in 30 days. I was just in Australia a couple months ago, and they did a big television special on this father son and unlike a lot of those Kickstarter and Indiegogo campaigns, they delivered on all 36,000 of those units and they’re off to the races.

AP
I was going to say, what’s happening to them since?

VH
Yeah, exactly. Now they’re doing well but the key was going back is they blended the old Regis McKenna saying, “let’s identify the influencers”. The good news is you can use some technologies to really multiply the impact much quicker.

AP
Yeah. So, when you’re looking at back into your process about scaling people, processes and so on, is what’s the most difficult part, is the people the strategy, the processes?

VH
Now, it’s marketing. Because, in the beginning, as a lean startup, you’ve got to say yes to everything. And as Geoffrey Moore taught us, but I don’t think a lot of people paid attention to it. What got you here won’t get you there. There’s this chasm that you really do have to cross, we call moving from a lean startup to an agile scale up, which is what we focus on. Things like those original reference clients aren’t useful in the scale up phase.

AP
You say they’re not useful.

VH
They’re not useful. That’s one of the key things that Jeffrey found, that those early adopters, their testimonials, how they’re going to use the product, even their feedback isn’t going to reflect the big enough mainstream market you’re going to need to scale. So, it’s good enough to get launched. But you’d better have again a well-functioning marketing department separate from sales. And I remember Regis putting his finger up and he were like, “What’s the key to marketing?” And puts his finger up. We were, “The key to marketing is to put your finger up? He goes, “No, one hour a week.” You’ve got to focus on this topic. And in fact, Steve Jobs ended up– the only function he chaired at Apple, and it’s when it was really going and blowing was marketing. And it was a three-hour meeting every Wednesday afternoon. So, and then you need marketing. I think what people don’t realize is that you need marketing, not just to get new customers but all new relationships. You need as much to attract talent, one of the things and scaling up is, can you get enough people? You needed to get investors, advisors, attention from the media, all of that requires marketing.

AP
Well, and Mark Roberge in his book, The Sales Acceleration Formula, talks about the fact that we oftentimes startups underinvest in marketing.

VH
Yeah, precisely.

AP
And so, you had a lot of formulas in your book and so on. But, do you have a formula that you recommend for your high impact companies in terms of investment in marketing investment sales?

VH
Not so, much a percent of revenue, any kind of formula like that, but, we’re big fans of David Meerman Scott, David is a good friend sales and marketing books. And he gave me, I think one of the best pieces of advice that we took, which is, if you want to bolster marketing, don’t hire a marketer, hire a writer or videographer. Today, it’s pretty simple, nobody wants to be sold, everybody wants to be educated. And your ability to put together, as Joe Polish recommends these consumer guides, David talks about this company that’s a leader in industrial solder. And literally you can go to their website and get a PhD in industrial soldering. And that’s critical. But the problem is there’s not too many people in companies that can string a couple of sentences together or produce a decent video to tell their story. And it’s about storytelling. So, we really encourage, not so much spending a lot of money, because nobody can afford that anyway, in terms of small to midsize companies. It’s doing the kind of things that that father son team did in Australia, which didn’t cost much. It’s really just putting me out into identifying the influencers, and then getting a good coherent message to them, and getting them bought in and then letting them do their magic. And bloggers tend to be good writers.

AP
Yeah, absolutely.

VH
The good bloggers who are followed have tend to be the good writers. And that solves your problem.

AP
Yeah. And it’s no accident. And David, obviously, Mark Roberge from HubSpot. David was involved with HubSpot. So, consistency there. So, one barrier I see a lot of times with entrepreneurs as they’re growing their company is, I call the fear of sales manifested two ways, one is sort of the reluctance to get out and do it but also a reluctance to invest appropriately in the right people and bring the right people on board to do it.

VH
Yeah, I mean, particularly, it’s that challenge. Usually most entrepreneurs, because they’ve got a real passion and love for their product or service, they don’t mind telling their story, and they’re the original salesperson. But that’s why 76% of the companies remain home based. Because the barriers, how do I find that next person that can be as excited and passionate about what we’re doing? Especially at that point where we haven’t figured it all out yet, we haven’t nailed our story. We’re still trying to, have few more revolutions of the flywheel until we nail it. And that’s a very awkward time, and I see a lot of guys just give up and say, “Look, it’s going to be me, I’m going to be kind of a one-man shop or one-woman shop”, and, try to make a living that way. So, it’s only about 3% of the company’s scale.

AP
So, that’s okay, that’s a great statistic. So, how do you know you’re one of those?

Advice from Mark Cuban

VH
Well, one of our indicators is that you’re a voracious learner, that you don’t think at all, and that you’re willing to go out and seek help. Yeah, it was interesting, we hosted Mark Cuban our last fortune summit in Dallas. And we had about 1000 craze scale ups, their CEOs and our executive teams. We do twice a year to say, it’s kind of a love fest for scale ups. And one of the participants asked Mark, “Hey, what’s the biggest mistake you made and what did you learn from it?” We were all, waiting for him to think about it, and he really did take a moment. And he said, “Look, I’ve failed a lot, which is typical of those that are most successful. And when I looked at those failures, there was a fact pattern, which is in almost every case, I thought I was the smartest person in the room.” That’s when he said he always got his head handed to him. And so, you have to have this conviction, but you’ve got to be humble enough to think that there might be some things that you don’t know and that you’re willing to go seek help. And you’d be surprised that this independent streak that entrepreneurs have, in some cases becomes the barrier to seeking that help and that seeking that knowledge and continue to learn, Mark, I didn’t know until I read his book, but since he was 20, he reads three hours a day. Mark Zuckerberg picked up reading a book every couple of weeks. Bill Gates with his twice a year think weeks, Warren Buffett 500 pages a day. Larry Page, when our editor of Fortune, Alan Murray, interviewed Larry, now that he’s CEO of Google and said, “Hey, Larry, how’d you learn to be CEO?” He goes, “Well, I read a lot.” And those are all great examples, but I’m just amazed at how many people haven’t read a book in a year or listen to it, let alone 26.

AP
You gave a great example in the book about a company having a book club.

VH
Yeah, has as what he calls a Better Book Club. And he pays his people to read.

AP
I think that’s ingenious.

VH
Yeah, if you want a 10X a company, you really have got a 10X the knowledge not just of yourself, but everybody else in the firm. Otherwise you leave everybody behind and outgrowing your team, is one of the big barriers and one of the most painful things because now you’re facing having to let go some of your early friends.

The power of reading

AP
Yeah, absolutely. I get back to that point about paying people to read, I am a passionate believer in that idea. I’ve got some clients this year that they’ve done that we put down a curriculum for them and agreed to give it to him. But all they had to do is devote 20 minutes a day to their people to be able to read. And these people had never read a book prior to this, about sales or marketing. In this year they’ve read 11.

VH
Yeah, that’s spectacular.

AP
I just wonder why more companies, managers don’t do that?

VH
Well, because they don’t themselves. Which, by the way, to me, I put it in my trend column for 2016. I’m right now working on my trend column for 2017. But for 2016, and I think there was some progress made, I said, this is the year that we get rid of the word manager. And that’s particularly in sales. Nobody needs or wants a sales manager. What they need is a sales coach. And that’s the significant change we’re seeing is this pivot from people being managers to coaches. And in fact, one of the top five business books of this year that I named in my column, that just came out a couple of days ago in Fortune, was this book by Michael Stanier called The Coaching. It’s a spectacular, spectacular book.

AP
He was a guest on my show as well.

VH
Well, but that that’s the key. And I remember, when we were involved with doing tours of Dell, and Michael’s top VP of sales, said, “The key metric is windshield time.” All at the sales, they still call the managers, but they need to spend at least 30 hours a week coaching. And I think that’s one of the reasons why they were able to scale up to 50 billion, now 75.

AP
What seems that’s a ton of books been written this last year on coaching. But what’s still seems to be sort of this problem is this conundrum that, given the advent of so much availability, so much data, that increasingly senior executives are looking for the frontline managers to serve as metric jockeys. Yeah, they give lip service to coaching, but they’re finding now that more and more of their time is being spent tabulating data and reporting on it and providing it to senior management.

VH
Yeah, and that’s where I see the role, marketers or analytics. Salespeople are relationship folks, and the one thing salespeople are great at is talking or they should be, and listening. And so, one of the things one of those basic besides having a one-hour marketing meeting and making your relationship list and work down that list, we’re real big on this idea that whatever your distribution channel is, sales rep, sales team, they need to call in every day and report what they’ve heard. GE end up calling it QMI, quick market intelligence. But it was something that Jimmy Calano, right there in Boulder, Colorado, who built the largest one-day seminar company in the world before he sold it to John Malone at TCI, 15 – 16 years ago, or maybe 20 now. I was an independent speaker like 500 others. And if we wanted to get paid that day, we had to go find a payphone. I remember I’d be in Auckland, New Zealand, doing a total quality management gig. And at the end of that I had to call in and report, first what the numbers were, how many people were there? It was kind of a check and balance on operations. And more importantly, there’s only two kinds of salespeople, winners and whiners and, you’re trying to sort out the ones who only whine versus the winners who’ve got barriers. And it was a chance for us every day to report what was working and not working in the field. What we’re hearing from customers. And Jimmy really had the mentality that the goal of the rest of the company was to figure out how to get those barriers out of the way of us who are in the field, delivering and making sales. The other thing we did was, we collected massive amounts of Intel. I mean, your salespeople are your CIA, they’re your agency. And they’re often competitors having workshops in the same hotel next door, and we were just expected to go next door and write down the name of the workshop and who the speaker was, and how many seats were in the room. And all of that Intel flow back to Boulder and Jimmy could see trends before others could, he could even guess the how well his competitors were doing even though they were private companies like he was. Because salespeople as you know, they have this flush mechanism in their brain, where the only way they maintain sanity, is they flush their brain every night. And if you don’t capture that, and verbally, they’re not going to write a report, they really are not. In fact, that’s your threat. If you don’t report daily, you’ve got to run a report. And, the great news is, with today’s technologies, they can call in and leave a voice message, and then the technology converts it to text. And you’ve got your report anyway.

Lightning Round Questions for Verne Harnish

AP
Yeah. Perfect. So, Vern, we’ve got a few minutes left on show. This is the last segment of the show. I’ve got some standard questions I ask all my guests. And the first one serves a hypothetical scenario where you’ve just been hired– and I didn’t write this specifically for you, but you’re better prepared to answer than anybody else, you just hired as VP of sales by a company whose sales have stalled out, it is time to do a reset turnaround. What two things could you do your first week on the job that would have the biggest impact?

VH
Well, I take a page from Sam Palmisano. He was kind enough to endorse my second book, and he ended up being CEO of IBM, doubled their market cap during the recession. He was given a similar division, that sales had stalled. And so, the first thing he did is he identified who would be the next best customer. Because one of the challenges of salespeople that just go out call on anybody they can. And he said I, my analysis is that it would be customers who are rabid users of EMC certain suite of products, they would most want our complimentary suite of products. Then he went further, and he identified the top hundred customers EMC and then he used one of the most important management tools ever invented. Bill Gates called it one of the best, and that was a whiteboard. And on this whiteboard, he wrote the names of these hundred customers. And then he got on a daily global sales call and his one question is, “Who did you get to on the list?” And his question the next day was, “Who did you get to on the list?” And they It was like Regis Mckenna, make your list and work it every week. And if a salesperson said, “Hey, Sam, nobody on the list, but I’ve got a hot deal over here”, he’s like, I don’t think you heard me. That’s the list. And so, I would identify a list, whether it’s a certain buyer persona, the kind of work that Adele does, Rivera, or actually aspecific list of companies and then I would make sure that we’re pounded that list every day until it’s exhausted and that’s how I would get sales.

AP
And the key point there too, is love the words the next best customer, not just the next customer. Perfect. Okay, four quick questions for your rapid firing give me a one-word answers or elaborate if you wish. The first one is when you Verne are out selling your services, what’s your most powerful sales attribute?

VH
That We’re teaching our emotional benefit not the logical. People buy through the heart.

AP
Yep. Who’s your sales role model?

VH
You know, my dad, he’s the one who taught me sales.

AP
So, one book, doesn’t have to be a sales book, but one book other than your own that every salesperson should read.

VH
Yeah, look, I just read. I agree to everything Neil Rackham wrote. But I like the sales, three work and I just went blank on the guy’s name. It’s too late here in Barcelona.

AP
Put it down, we’ll get him on the show notes. Alright, so, last question. What music is on your playlist right now?

VH
You know what? We are absolutely Pentatonix fan. Their Christmas album. You know, it’s one of the few that went platinum. And we went to go see them, we’ve been literally listening to them today.

AP
Well, that’s a good choice. And I think they have– actually, we’re recording this in December. There’s a TV special coming up here in the states so, you’ll be able to stream it. Well, Vern, thanks for being on the show, and tell people how they can find out more about you and connect with you.

VH
scalingup.com

AP
Okay, that’s simple, scalingup.com

VH
Yeah, we’ve got it. We’ve got a free chapter there and one on this one-page personal plan, and all of our tools are there for free and then sign up for my Thursday weekly inside so, it’s all there in scalingup.com.

AP
Excellent. Well, again, thanks for being on the show. And remember friends, make it a part of your day every day to deliberately learn something new to help you accelerate your success. And one easy way to do that is to make this podcast a part of your daily routine, whether you listen to commute, in the gym, or make it part of your morning sales meeting. That way, you won’t miss any of my conversations with top business experts like my guest today, VH, who shared his expertise about how to accelerate the growth of your business. Thanks for joining me. Until next time, this is AP. Good selling everyone.

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